The Columbus Jewish Historical Society

Hello, this is Bill Cohen for the Columbus Jewish Historical Society and we are here at the home of Dick Golden on October 13, 2022 to interview Mr. Golden about his memories of the Jewish community in Columbus.

Interviewer:  Dick, let’s start with any memories, any background on your family.  Can you go back a generation or two?  Can you trace your family, your grandparents, maybe tell us where they were from, what they did?

Golden: Bill, my grandparents on both sides came from Europe, different parts of Europe.  My father’s father, Barash, or Ben, from the Ukraine, and he was a sugar beet farmer.  He worked for a Duke, a Graf.  The Jews could not own the land, but he was a good manager, a young man and a strong man.  That was grandpa Barash or Ben.  Goldenberg was their maiden name.  Barash Goldenberg was married to Leah.  We haven’t got the last name.  They were a young couple and they had three children, three boys.  They had Joseph, which was my father, Chaim, Chaimy, who was an uncle, and Harry, Herschel.  They were three boys about a year and a half apart.  There was some tragedy there that their mother died as a result of some kind of an accident there.  Grandpa was left with three little boys to raise.  They made a deal.  There was a Shadchan, an arranger of marriages in the village and they found a young woman about 100 kilometers away by the name of Sora Melsey (?).  She was a young divorcee who was married to a tyrannical old man and she got a legal rabbinic divorce from him.  An 18-year old young woman comes and marries, on a deal, grandpa Barash Goldenberg.  She’s stuck with three boys.  Joe, age 5 maybe, and Chaimy, Chaim 3, and then Harry, a little one, maybe a year old.  She had her hands full.  She was a loving woman and I remember my grandma, Sarah.  She lived in Cleveland.  This was years later.  After that marriage with Sarah and Barash, they had other children.  They had two daughters, Rae and Clara and then they had Lou and George.  George was born in the United States, Gershon.  Anyway, she raised these kids, wonderful grandma, wonderful grandma.  The stories, you know we heard them as children, and I think that’s the background.   Okay let’s talk about Dick Golden, right now.  This is the very basic background.  We came from good stock, hard-working people, a lot of arguments, good family arguments, a lot of progress.  We’ll start there for a second.  Can you give me some suggestion to get back on track now?

Interviewer: Well, just for a second, your father was one of the three children whose mother died and then they had a new mother, the 18-year old. So that was your father.  Your father was born in the Ukraine and then what can you tell us about how he wound up in the United States?

Golden: Well, they were trying to get to the United States.  Joseph, Yosele, Joe, my father, and the next brother Chaim, Chaimy, they walked and rode horses and wagons all the way through Poland to Hamburg, Germany and they answered an ad to carry two prize cattle they were bringing from Germany to the United States on a German freighter.  They were not allowed on deck, but they knew how to deal with the livestock.  These two young boys, nineteen and I guess seventeen at that time.

Interviewer:  1917?

Golden:  No, this was the 1880’s, in that period of time, between 1880 and 1890.

Interviewer: They were teenagers?

Golden: Yeah, they were teenagers.  They were 19 and 17.  Sharkers, they were pretty tough cookies.  They left from Hamburg, Germany on a German ship.  They were below deck for almost five weeks taking care of prize cattle.  They get to Baltimore, Maryland.  They have to drop these cattle off at Baltimore, Maryland.  There was a German officer, ship’s officer, walks them about two miles with the prize cattle, they were breeding cattle, to the pens.  They decided to look at each other very carefully and they say, “Let’s get the hell out of this business and go someplace else.”  They didn’t have the right papers or anything else, so they paid attention to the officer.  They did what they had to do, and they were to go back on the boat, but they didn’t go back on the boat.  They stayed in the United States and they were able to be cared for and they got legal testimony that they were okay to stay as long as they could work.  They would start their papers that way.  So they are now placed in the United States and they had an uncle.  These boys had an uncle, brother to my grandfather, to their father, who lived in Cleveland, uncle Avram.  He came earlier.  So, they made it to Cleveland and they worked their citizenship out there.  As the story goes, they were able to work in Cleveland.  Right off the bat, they found jobs and they established themselves in America.  That’s where they started.  What’s next?

Interviewer: Did your father and his brother, did they tell their parents that, when they got to the United States, they were going probably to stay?

Golden:  Well, yes, there was an arrangement.  It was always a pre-arrangement.  You don’t just pack up and put your shoes on and walk.  They had plans.  It was like the underground railroad at that time, the same idea. This one had a landsman here and this one had a friend here and this one had an uncle here and they connected.  This is how thousands of people came to the United States.  They had to have an angel, if not an angel, they had somebody that could help.  Okay, so now they’re established in the Cleveland area as young men.  At this point now, the war hasn’t started in Europe yet. WWI hadn’t started yet, but these boys were draft bait by this time.  Now my mother, Lillian Cohen, her father came from England, her parents, and her mother came from Poland.  They sat down to the Cohen family.  The Goldenberg family as an established family, they got started.

Interviewer:  Lillian Cohen.

Golden: Lillian Cohen was my mother.  Her father was Meier Bar Cohen, or Ben Cohen.  He was an Englishman, and he had a merchant attitude.  He could get businesses started.  So, he started a little grocery business. Joe Goldenberg then was working in Cleveland, and he met Lillian Cohen. Again, there’s a shadach, there’s a linkage.  There’s always a third party that says, “Why don’t you do this?  Why don’t you do that?”  This was custom with Jewish people, “Hey, there’s a nice young lady here, a good lady, a blonde lady.  Her father has got a grocery store. Yosele take a look.”  So, they fell in love, and they were married.  In the meantime, WWI had started and dad was ready to go to the Service, but they got married.  One of my uncles did go to the Service, uncle Harry, Harry Sills.  He was wounded in France.  The war is over now, the first world war is over at this time.

Interviewer: So wait, so your father did not have to join the armed forces?

Golden:  No,  he didn’t have to go in.  He had a heart problem, according to a doctor, some kind of a murmer.  They didn’t know what it was in those days, but he didn’t pass that one physical.  Harry Silverman passed.  That was another cousin.  I don’t want to go any further.  It’s not necessary. There’s a married couple now.  Joseph Goldenberg and Lillian Cohen are married and along comes Harold Goldenberg, first child of the union between Lillian and Joseph.  Harold was born, I think, in 1919. Helene, Beverly Goldenberg, my sister, was the second child born of that union and then I came along in 1927.  We’re scattered now. The thing is interesting.  During this time, prohibition was in effect.  This is a part of American history that a lot of people don’t understand.  You could call it liquid entertainment.  There was a connection between Canada and Buffalo, New York, and Cleveland, Ohio.  It was called Lake Erie.  There was a connection of people, the Bronfman family, the Seagrams people, they were in Montreal.  They were hotel owners in the state of Washington years before this.  They were the starters of bringing Canadian liquor into the United States via Lake Erie.  What they did.  This is the story.  They would take a barrel and they would put a third of the barrel filled with sand.  They would put the rest of the barrel, it was a sealed thing, and they would put the alcohol in that so it wouldn’t leak into the sand.  They’d put a little flag pole up on the thing, I don’t know, if this is history or not, but it’s an interesting story.  The barrel containing the alcohol would go down maybe five feet under water, but the pole came up with a little red flag from Canada to the United States via the lakes.  So, when the little red flags floated up, the guys at night would come and they’d see the little red flag, they’d pull it up and there was their liquor.  They could bring it in.  People aren’t aware of how liquor came in.

Interviewer:  Now wait, are you saying that this was illegally being done?

Golden:  What?

Interview:  Are you saying this was being done illegally?

Golden:  Oh, most likely.

Interviewer: That’s what you’re describing?

Golden: It was bringing Bronfman’s liquor into the United States via barrels that were floating in Lake Erie.  You talk about, this is the story that people don’t realize.  This is what I heard as a child. My father was not a bootlegger.  What he was doing, he was able to negotiate.  This is where he came in.  There’s always a negotiator.  He connected with the American Can Company which was just getting in.  Now Prohibition is over.  Here comes American Can.  My father is a distributor for the American Can Company, representing them in Cleveland.  Prohibition is over and they are going to put beer in cans and he has a warehouse full of these cans, big cans.  He says, “Beer will never sell in cans.  I want to sell out.”  The guy says, “Joe, stay in, by gosh, stay in, stay in.”  “Beer will never sell in cans.  It has to be in a bottle where you pop the cap off and you drink it from the bottle. You know you don’t drink beer from a can.”

Interviewer:  That’s what your dad insisted.

Golden:  Right and this was one of the mistakes he made, but we kidded about it, there was a lot of humor there.  He also was able to make an arrangement with the people from Chef Boyardee, Ettore (Hector) Boiardi, he had an Italian restaurant in Cleveland, Ohio.  Her dad’s warehouse was Ettore (Hector) Boiardi’s little restaurant.  A lot of people would eat there.  A man names Moe (Maurice) Weiner, who was in grocery distribution, he makes a deal with Hector Boiardi to put the tomato sauce in cans and, puff, Hector Boiardi is manufacturing tomato sauce for spaghetti.

Interviewer: This is a little different than I remembered, but you’re talking about Chef Boyardee, and your father played a role in this?

Golden: He played a role absolutely unbeknownst to himself.  He was stuck with the cans.  The cans went to Hector Boiardi, and instead of liquor, they put tomato sauce in them.  Moe Weiner was the salesman at that end. Joe Goldenberg supplied the cans at this end.  Hector Boiardi manufactured it from a little tiny restaurant in Cleveland, Chef Boyardee.

Interviewer:  This later became a national product.

Golden:  Oh, yeah, they ended up in Hershey, Pennsylvania, I think.  That’s years ago.

Interviewer: Interesting.  That was your dad.  When you were born, you said, in 1927, in Cleveland.  What do you remember of those early years?You were in Cleveland for how long?

Golden:  Until I was in ninth grade.  Then we moved to Canton, Ohio.  I remember going to the baseball games in Reed Park.  I can remember my Bar Mitzvah.  I was 13 years old when the war started in Europe.

Interviewer:  Second World War.

Golden:  WWII, Germany and France.  Let me just stop one second.  I think I’m going too fast for you.  The stories of Cleveland.  I had a problem reading.  I was not a super student.  I had what they call Dyslexia.  I could read Hebrew going from right to left, but I got stuck with words going from left to right.  This is a story now.  Next door to me there was a good buddy of mine named Don Powers, he should rest in peace.  He went to St. Ann’s Catholic School.  He and I had the same problem.

We were next door neighbors.  My mother and his mother got together, and Mrs. Powers decided to tell my mother, “Enroll Richard in the program that the two Sisters have at St. Ann’s school.”  Well, you talk about a screwed-up kid.  Here I am studying for a Bar Mitzvah. Tuesdays and Thursdays I would go to Cheder.

Interviewer: Religious school.

Golden: Yeah, religious school. Then the other two days of the week I would go to Catholic school with Don Powers, and we had two nuns.  They were marvelous teachers, by the way, terrific teachers.  We got a lot of good training, and they helped me.  Every Thursday, my dad would come into the Catholic school, tip his hat to the nuns.  He had a cigar in his mouth and a five-pound box of candy for the nuns.  I would plotz to see him walk in with a cigar in his hand and a five-pound box of candy.

I was embarrassed.  He says, “Schwester this is good candy for you and the other ladies.”  Not nun, other ladies.  I couldn’t wait for him to get out of the building.  These are funny stories that we shared.  These were two marvelous teachers.  These women were outstanding teachers.

Interviewer: Is this representative of how Jews and Catholics got along in Cleveland?

Golden:  Yeah, I think that these were marvelous educating type women. They were tough cookies.  I mean they were good teachers, and they were good Catholic ladies, and they would respect my father.  I would plotz.  I was embarrassed because he would come.  He was a salesman.

He didn’t care who he gave a box of candy to, but he loved these two nuns because they were helping us, the two boys.  There were two other boys in the class with us. The confusion came in when they asked, “Where did you go to school?”  I went to some classes at St. Ann’s Catholic School and then I went to Cheder with Mark Schuster on 105^th Street, in Cleveland.  I had a link up between two interesting situations growing up with this, which was a plus, not a negative.  It was a plus.

Interviewer: You realized that your identity was Jewish?

Golden: Oh yeah, yeah.  This is one little story of childhood, of youth.  I entered a two-year high school, Roosevelt Junior High School in Cleveland Heights, Ohio.  Don Powers went to Catholic School again and he ended up at Cathedral Latin, a high school in Cleveland.  We would bump into each other through the years.  He went into the para troops.  We used to see each other on the train coming back and forth.  It was a life-long marvelous experience with Don Powers.  We were just buddies.  Don Powers died of Lou Gehrig’s Disease.  I would visit with him here in Columbus about once a week or so, if I could.  It tore my heart out, a good friend.  Don Power’s daughter works for Highlights for Children.  She would arrange trips and little booklets for our little girls.  So, there was always a connection with Don.  When I’d see Don Powers, he would say, “Hey, I’ve got two Jewish sons-in-law, and one of them is a Kosher butcher.”  I said, “Get a good hot dog and call me up when you’re ready to eat it.”  We would kid back and forth.  It was a marvelous friendship.  I want that to be known to the Jewish community here.  These were two young men to overcame a lot of headache.

Interviewer:  That’s an interesting story.  I guess the key thing is you think that was representative of how Jews and non-Jews got along in Cleveland Heights or were there frictions?

Golden:  Well, Don’s father worked for Richmond Brothers, which is a Jewish company in menswear. He was the promotion manager.  We had a marvelous neighborhood.  We had an Italian family living across the street whose third son was part of a gang.  They found his body in a car on the West side of Cleveland.  We were kids yet, but this was one of the minority kids.  We grew up with a history of violence and love.  WWII started.  Father Coughlin was out there raising hell and all the other things.  Yet Catholic families helped us.  We linked together.  We were good pals.

Interviewer: Father Coughlin was on radio, and he was a very virulent antisemite.

Golden: Yeah.

Interviewer: He was Catholic.

Golden: A lot of Catholic people didn’t like him because he was a rabble rouser and he was backed by Henry Ford.  These are stories that should go into the history books.

Interviewer: WWII is rumbling and then breaks out.  The U.S. joins in Dec., 1941. What happened with your life?

Golden:  Okay, for this time on, 1941, we were living in Canton, Ohio.  We had moved because my dad was in the vending machine business, also, cigarette machines.  You could see the connections.  There’s some rusty sections.  We don’t have to go into that.  This is the way business was done in those days.  He was a pioneer in automatic coin vending, pioneer, and he put all his brothers in business.  American Automatic Vending went to be a public company.  My dad was one of the founders of it.  I couldn’t stand it.  So, Dick Goldenberg gets married to Thelma Garfield in 1951 and we changed our name from Goldenberg to Golden.

It was a legal name change.  Before that, we were living in Canton, Ohio.  Now here’s another story you’re going to have a lot of fun with. I had a paper route with the Canton Repository.  It’s a local Canton paper.  There was one route open, and they allowed us to sell candy bars, sheet music, sheet music with notes and words, and candy bars, plus the Canton Repository, they had one route open.  I had a bicycle. It was in the red-light district of Canton which was notorious, Rex Avenue and Cherry Street.

Interviewer:  When you say red-light district, do you mean prostitution or what?

Golden:  Prostitution.  There was a Jewish woman who owned one of the houses. Living right next door to this whore house, was Rabbi Armand Cohen. He and I would kid about it.  Let me go to the story.  This was years later when Rabbi Cohen and I were talking about it.  He said, “Do I know that place, I lived right next door to it.”  His father was a, Rabbi Cohen’s father was some kind of a tailor.  I can’t remember what it was.  Okay, it’s November and it’s bitter cold.  I had a route to deliver the Canton Repository and I also had candy bars and the song sheets.

There was one house, a little white house, and it was a blizzard, pouring snow, a blizzard up to here.  I couldn’t ride my bicycle.  I bang (sound) on the door and a black lady opens it.  “It’s the paper boy, get the heck out of here paper boy.  You’re not allowed in this whore house.”  I said, “I can’t, it’s snowing, it’s a blizzard.”  So she said, “Come on in.  Put your bike over here.”  So, I come in.  Her name was Smiley, I’ll never forget.   She had painted toe nails.  Every toe nail was a different color.  She said, “I’m going to give you a hot chocolate and a nickel.  You drink your hot chocolate and take your nickel and put it in the pay phone.  You call somebody at your house and you get your fanny out of this whore house. Aint no 14 year old boy gonna stay no more in this whore house.”  I’m scared to death.  I don’t know what to do.  There’s a pay phone.  I put the nickel in.  I call my mother.  Mother answers the phone.  She says, “Where are you Dickie?”  I said, “Well, I’m on Rex Avenue near Heller’s Barrel Factory.”  “What are you doing?”  “Well, I got stuck in the snow.  It’s a blizzard.”  She said, “Yes, it’s a blizzard.  You can’t ride your bike home.  I’ll pick you up.”  I said, “My mom,” I started stuttering, I didn’t know what to say.  I get the address.  She says, “You’re where?”  I said, “Yeah.”  She said, “Don’t move.  I’ll be there as soon as I can.”  Well, it took her almost an hour in the snow storm.  She took 31^st Street northwest down to Rex Avenue in Canton.  She comes in.  I don’t know what to say.  Smiley says, “You’re son is a gentleman.”  My mother says, “He’d better be.  Get his bicycle and put it in the back seat of the car.”  So, the gentleman who worked there takes the bike and puts it in the back seat.  For weeks, my mother would scold me in a nice way.  “Why did you have that route?  Didn’t you know, didn’t you know?  Then years later, we used to kid, we said, “Why didn’t you send pop down to pick me up?”  “Are you kidding, he wouldn’t come home for a week.”  This is a human interest story of a 14 year old kid stuck in a Canton whore house with Rabbi Armond Cohen growing up living next door to this place.

Interviewer: These are funny stories but they do symbolize some truths, one of which was, obviously, how business oriented you were and entrepreneurial.  Here you were 14 years old, you got a paper route and you tried to expand it to more than just newspapers.

Golden:  Right, right, and the story was published, by the way.  It went into one of the newspapers here.  I think the Chronicle had it years ago. I’ve got a copy of it, if you like.  It’s called ‘The Other Whitehouse.’

Interviewer:  This was when you were 14, you say?

Golden:  Fourteen years old, WWII started December 7^th.  We were on our way to Akron to see grandparents and cousins and we heard the news. Two weeks later, my brother, Harold, was already ready to go into the Service and life changed.  We were now at war and, 14 years old, and I remember saying, Canton Lehman High School, ninth grade, the old wooden desks.  I always carried a pocket knife with me.  I still carry a pocket knife.  On that wooden desk I carved December 7, this was December 8, December 7, 1941 War.  The teacher, Mr. Duke, saw it. He said, “You can’t leave that on there.”  He takes it to the principal.

The principal said, “Leave it on, it’s history, but get the knife from him.” (Laughs) So, this is a little shtick.  We heard the radio and President Roosevelt asking for a, this is Monday, in high school, 9th grade, Canton Lehman High School, asking Congress to declare war which was history.  This is what I carved on the desk.  Somewhere on that desk, it’s out there.

Interviewer: You must have some memories of, perhaps, coupon rationing, the hardships here on the home front.  What do you remember about WWII?

Golden:  Well, I remember that we had cousins and family that were in the middle of it, like a lot of other families all over the world, all over the United States, not only Jewish people but all the citizens of the United States.  There was a spiritual feeling.  Everybody felt good to help the other guy.  This is the way it was as a teenager in WWII.

We had junk collections.  We had scrap iron.  Sugar, shoes were rationed.  Sugar was rationed.  Meat, I finally got another job in a meat market, Newman’s Market on Market Street in Canton, Ohio, because they couldn’t get male help.  Alan Newman, who was the son of the man who owned the butcher shop, he and I learned how to cut meat.  Another funny story, Thanksgiving comes the next year, we’re still working at the (meat market).  The paper route is gone but we’re still in Canton and there’s two live turkeys that they bring into the market.  One of the live turkeys, Mr. Newman says, “Dickie, you get the turkey and you tie his feet with wire and take him back to Willy.”  Willy was a Black kid that worked with us.  He gives me a chopper.  I said, “Mr. Newman, what do you want me to do with this?”  He says, “You take it, Willy will hold the chicken. You give a knock on the turkey’s head and take his head off.”  I said, “I can’t do that.”  He said, “You do that.  I’ll give you a raise.  I’ll give you another dollar for the week.”  (Laughs) The Black kid is with me, I can’t remember whether it was Terrance or Clarence.  I can’t remember his name.  He’s shaking like a leaf.  He doesn’t want to do it so he gives me…

Interviewer: Neither of you want to kill this turkey.

Golden:   No.  The turkey is hobbling.  He’s holding the turkey and I’ve got the thing.  He goes like this, and I go like that, and we get it.  It was an experience, cutting the head of a turkey and then we had to learn how to clean a turkey.  So, at least it was a learning experience and it’s funny and yet it isn’t funny.  How do you take a kid who doesn’t know what he’s doing, who had a reading problem as a kid, put a meat cleaver in his hand and a knife to cut a turkey’s head off and then learn how to clean a turkey.

Interviewer: You became an adult more quickly.

Golden:  Oh yeah, and the other kid with me, he quit.  He couldn’t take it any longer.  He was so upset, poor guy.  We used to tease him.  We’d see him at school, and we used to tease him.  So, these are silly stories.

Interviewer: Now let me ask you this.  After the war and after the concentration camps had been liberated, we learned about all the Jews who’d been killed, but during the war in 1941, 42, 43, do you remember, was it clear to you as a teenager that Jews were being massacred by the millions?

Golden:  Yes.  There was news coming from neutral Spain.  Even though Spain was a fascist country at that time, there was a news leak.  They said that there was a movement of transporting people.  They think they were Jews and Gypsies.  Jews and Gypsies, the scourge of Europe.  We were just talking about Gypsies today.  They were put in a secondary category of garbage.  That’s the way we learned it.

Interviewer:  You’re saying the Germans declared that the Gypsies were garbage, and the Jews were garbage?

Golden:  Not only the Jews.  There was a systematic and a very business-like way of doing those things.  It was an industry.

Interviewer:  As a Jew in Canton, Ohio, you, it was clear to you the Jews were being killed?

Golden:   Oh yeah.  We supported things that we had to support.  We had a lot of family in the military.  I remember, Hershey Cohen was on the aircraft carrier, the Doolittle, when they bombed Tokyo.  He was a Canton kid.  He was a butcher, by the way, he worked at the market with me.  He was in the Navy on an aircraft carrier.  We found out later that he was on that carrier that the Doolittle took off from, Hershey Cohen, after the war he would talk about that.  He said they were scared to death.  They didn’t know what to do.  This is part of history, growing up learning the good, the bad, and the ugly.  There was a great burlesque theatre in Canton, the Gay.  I was one of the taller kids so I could buy the tickets. (Laughs)

Interviewer:  You pretended to be older than you were?

Golden: Oh yeah, older.  I didn’t see it till I was 21, for God’s sake. Anyway, these are good stories to share.  It’s growing up.

Interviewer:  Growing up quickly.

Golden:  Growing up quickly.

Interviewer:  When and why did you leave Canton?

Golden:  What’s that?

Interviewer: When and why did you leave Canton?

Golden:  Why do these things happen?  I don’t understand.

Interviewer:  After Canton, where did you live?

Golden:  We moved back to Cleveland Heights.  I became a 10^th grader.  I was a year and a half in Canton and I came into the 10^th grade in Cleveland Heights.  My father bought a home in Cleveland Heights and I went to Cleveland Heights High School for the rest of the time.   My reading skills improved.  It was an interesting time of growing up.  I made life-long friends again.  Hitler killed himself April 30, 1945.  Five of us went down, we were high school seniors, it was in April, in late spring, down to the post office, I think it was the post office building down in Cleveland, to enlist.  We were still in high school. They all passed the physical.  I didn’t pass it because I couldn’t read the chart right without glasses.  I was given a six-month leeway to get my eyes corrected and they would take me, which I did.  Five of us went down there.  Three went into the army, one the Navy, and, I was not included.  The other one went, I think, into the Marine Corp.   Harold Mendes went into the Merchant Marine.  So, here we are, May 8^th.   Hitler killed himself on the April 30^th.  We’re down there to enlist.  A week later, May 8^th, the war ends in Europe, 7 or 8 days after Hitler killed himself.  This is history.

Interviewer: You knew the war was coming to an end, but you enlisted.  Explain.

Golden: The Japanese war was wide open yet.

Interviewer:  Still going on.

Golden: Sandy Moss went into the Navy.  He was one of the five.  They caught him because he was blind in one eye.  He couldn’t read charts but he had special glasses.  He shmeared somebody.  He got into the Navy.  Eight days later they kicked him out of the Navy.  They found out that he couldn’t see.  He ended up, he and I enlisted in the Army together.

Interviewer: You’re in the Army in 1945.

Golden:  The war is almost over.

Interviewer: It’s almost over.  Where did you wind up being stationed, where did you go?

Golden:  I was in an Army transportation corp.  I was part of a gun crew on an army tug.  The Army had more bullets than the Navy.  I’ll give you a picture if you want to throw it in there.  We had to leave at 4 a.m. from Camp Stoneman, by truck.  They picked us up every day.  We had to be in San Francisco at 5 a.m. and we had to clean the gun between 5 a.m. and 7a.m., and wait for inspection.  We never fired.  I don’t think the gun was ever fired.  It was interesting.  The young Lieutenant J. G. who was in charge of us, he’s Navy, but it’s an Army boat, because he’s on the gun crew.  All we’re doing is cleaning the thing, cleaning.  It’s a good experience.

Interviewer: You were stationed where? Did you say San Francisco?

Golden:  Camp Stoneman, California. The Port of Embarkation, POE, was San Francisco Port of Embarkation to Port Mason.  It was right on the coast.  It was a little, there was a tug boat station there. The boat was an Army boat.  They would use those boats to pull the big troop ships out.

Interviewer: Were you always here in the United States, or did you wind up getting shipped?

Golden:  No, I was always in the United States.

Interviewer:  You were in the armed forces for how long?

Golden: A little under two years, 18 months.  The enlistment went for two years but we had an 18-month setup.

Interviewer: Right after you enlisted and got into the armed forces, the war ended, even in the far east?

Golden:  Yeah.

Interviewer: So, we were in peace time?

Golden: Primarily peace time, sure.

Interviewer: Tell me, when you were in the armed forces, first of all, were there many Jews that you were side by side with?

Golden:  Yeah, there were.  It was a melting pot.  We had two Chinese cousins.  We had a Japanese American kid.  He went to Heights High School with me by the way.  He and I are life-long buddies, (Mesai?).  He had a terribly tough time.  He was raised in the Bellefaire Home with 55 of the Japanese American kids who went to Cleveland for high school.  He came to us in 11^th grade, Mendi Kaharawa ? and Minoru Minoso?

Interviewer:  You said he was raised in what kind of a home?

Golden: In the Bellefaire Orphan Home, Cleveland.

Interviewer:  An orphan home?

Golden: Yeah, it was a Jewish orphanage, but they had these Japanese American kids, boys and girls.  They made arrangements through the B’nai B’rith.  So, Mendi Kaharawa?, I remember he met us at the airport years later.

Interviewer:  They were orphans because their parents …?

Golden:  They were not orphans.  They were considered dangerous Americans which was baloney. These were terrific kids.

Interviewer: I see.  You were referring to the fact that Japanese families were held in concentration camps.

Golden:  His parents were both born in the United States.

Interviewer: I see.  They were ripped apart from their families.

Golden: Right.  They were raised in Utah, Arizona, and Nevada in outdoor camps.  He told me the whole story.  Can I bring you one picture?

Interviewer: No.  We’ll look at pictures later.  So, they were separated from their parents and here they are in Cleveland.

Golden:  Yeah. Mendi Kaharawa’s father was a master horticulturist.  He would experiment in different bulb flowers.  He was a trained horticulturist born in the United States.  His wife was born in Okinawa, as we found out later.  Mini Minoso? became a PhD in wine, vineyards, bringing certain wine breeds together in the vines and breeding grapes for wine, brilliant, and he went to high school with me in Cleveland.

Interviewer:  He was with you in the armed forces?  No.

Golden: No.  They were in high school with me.

Interviewer:Okay, yeah.

Golden:  We were high school buddies.  They brought them into the Bellefaire Home in their high school years.

Interviewer: You said, Mini Minoso.”  That was a baseball figure.

Golden:  Right.  This was another one.

Interviewer: Another one, the same name?

Golden: No, I’m sorry.  It wasn’t, Minoru Okano, Mini Okano. He stood well over four feet.  He took me to lunch.  We were in San Francisco.  We kept in touch through the years.

Interviewer:  In the armed forces, you said it was kind of a melting pot of different nationalities and the Jews were okay there?

Golden: Oh yeah.  I never had major problems.  We always backed each other up, different groups.  They were picking on the Italians, they were picking on the …, there was a Polish kid there, he came in with us.  We helped each other.  We found out that some hillbilly kids were still a little anti- semitic.  It wasn’t European, it was mountain people, more or less.  They didn’t understand it.  We watched each other carefully.  We helped each other.

Interviewer: What happened after you were in the armed forces?  Where did you go then?

Golden: Well, I came back to Ohio State, and I started to go to Ohio State University.  I thought I could make it.  I couldn’t make it in dental school.  I transferred out and I worked in the vending machine company.

Interviewer: With your father?

Golden:  Well, when the company went public, my father was out of it by this time.  I couldn’t grow in that business.  I couldn’t grow.  I was low man on the totem pole.  I knew that there were other people out there that had the reading problems that I had as a kid, so I decided to become a teacher and I worked at this.  I worked and I organized the Whitehall Counseling Center.  We worked with kids.  We worked with adults.

Interviewer: Here in Columbus?

Golden:  In Columbus, in Whitehall.  We were able to get sponsors.  We bought a house to use as a gathering clinic.  We supported the … there was a whole other campus for the runaway kids.  I can’t remember the name.

Interviewer: This was your job?

Golden:  No, this was a volunteer job.  I became an officer in that company, that organization.  It was supported by the Whitehall City government and the public schools.  We would take kids who were runaways.  There was a house near campus where these kids would be safe.  I can’t remember the name of it.

Interviewer:  What did you do for work, though, at this point?

Golden:  I was teaching school.

Interviewer: You got a teaching degree?

Golden:  I got an education degree.

Interviewer: From Ohio State?

Golden:  From Ohio State and we worked with people in business, business people in Whitehall.  We decided that there was a drug crisis there and it was creeping into the school, so we organized ourselves and came up with a counseling service.  We were sponsored by certain organizations in Whitehall, business people.  We had people coming into the Whitehall Counseling Center.  We had a big sign, ‘If you are carrying a weapon, leave it outside or put it on the desk.’  We had people come in with knives and guns and leave it on the desk.  It was a risky thing.  We were not well trained, but we were trained.  We were just trained to listen.  It was all listening, not talking, listening and nodding, listening and taking notes.  Just before they were ready to leave, I said, “Let’s come in another week.  Come in next week and we’ll have another guide.”  The next person, who was more trained, would hear the next if they would keep the appointment.  Late at night, we’d get calls to go to the white house.

Interviewer:  This was volunteer work for you?

Golden:  All volunteer work.

Interviewer: During the daytime you were a regular teacher?

Golden:  I taught 7^th grade.  I taught 6^th grade.  I even taught kindergarten in Florida.  We taught new Americans at the Columbus Jewish Center.  We had a lot of interesting stories.  I can’t share some of them with you, but we had a lot of good people.  Let me just share one story with you.

Interviewer: Were you teaching in the Columbus Public Schools?

Golden: I was teaching in the Whitehall Public Schools.

Interviewer: Whitehall schools.  Okay, tell us the story.

Golden: Dr. E. J. Gordon, his wife, Mrs. Gordon, was very active with helping new Americans coming into the country.  She was a high school graduate with federal judge, Rocky’s grandfather.  I can’t remember.

Interviewer:  Saxbe?  Rocky, you said.

Golden:  No.  federal Judge…, I got it written down someplace.  Mrs. Gordon went to high school with the federal judge when they were kids.  We had one client who was a veterinarian in Holland.  He was a Jewish man. He worked for the Wehrmacht as a meat inspector.  That’s what kept him alive.

Interviewer: He was German?  He worked for the German air force during WWII?

Golden: Yeah.  He was in Holland.  He told us the whole story.  He was also active in the underground, connected with sort of a, not a communist group, but a different group of Dutch people who would bring people out.  So here he is.  He’s working for the Wehrmacht as a meat inspector.  He’s a licensed veterinarian in Holland.  At certain times he helps people sneak out in boats along the coast.  He finally pulls some strings and he gets to the United States after the war.  He’s in our new Americans group.  He’s ready for his citizenship. The story goes, he’s panicked.  He wants to get his citizenship.  He’s ready to be sworn in.  Mrs. E. J. Gordon, we’re in the Gordon’s apartment, Dr. Gordon and Mrs. E. J. Gordon.  This man is panicked.  He doesn’t know … because he has to show that he worked for the Wehrmacht and also he worked for the underground which was connected to the communist group in Holland.  He has a job waiting for him in Denver, Colorado.  So, we don’t know what to do.  He will not sign the right paper.  So, she calls the federal judge who was a classsmate of hers years before.  He says, “Send the son-of-a-bitch down to my office at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning and I’ll swear him in.”  He’s somewhere now in Oklahoma.  It was years ago.

Interviewer:  Swear him in as a citizen?

Golden: Yes, evidently the judge cleared him.

Interviewer: Tell me, when you talk about helping these new Americans, are we talking about the 1950s, the 1960s?

Golden:  We’re talking about the 1960s.  We’re talking about Herman Schlusser (?).  Herman Schlusser, you remember, on Livingston Avenue, you’d see  a guy all bent over, wheeling a baby buggy.  You ever see that guy collecting wood, that was Herman Schlusser.  He was an Olympic wrestling champion, Jewish man, in Germany, in the 1936 Olympics.  During the war he was interred in a concentration camp.  The thing that kept him alive was that the SS would take him to different camps as a wrestler.  If he lost a match, they would beat him up with straps.

Interviewer:He would wrestle Germans?

Golden:  He was a wrestler.  He got squirrely, he got injured in the head.  Anyway, he’s in the night school class.  I have Spiro Seminoff (?) who became ….  Seminoff would be Macedonian.  He became Greek.  His brother was living here, Seminoff.  Off is more or less Macedonian. Anyway, he and Schlusser become friends and they’re sitting in our night school class.  Schlusser hasn’t got it all together but he’s ready  for his citizenship.  I said, “Herman, can you stand up and say the pledge to the flag?”  He said, “Oh, yeah.”  “Tell me, can you count to 20 in English because you might be asked these questions, 5 plus what makes 20?”  He says, “finf (Yiddish) 15.”  “Okay, can you count to 20 in English, good English?”  “Yah, one, two three, feer (Yiddish)”  “Not feer, four.” “Four, finif, zeks (Yiddish).”  “Not finf, zeks, five, six.” “Yeah six.”  Spiro takes his notebook and sits next to him.  He says, “Dummy, not six, nis, nis is sox.”  He points to his socks.  He’s trying to teach him English.  You can’t laugh.  This is what’s so funny about it.  We got Schlusser his citizenship.  Spiro Seminoff became an owner of a bar across from the Ohio State Capital building.  I went to his funeral.  He was 16 or 17 when I had him.  I went to his funeral two years ago.

Interviewer:     These are the people you helped in the 1960s here in Columbus with your special schooling and classes.  So, remind us, you met your wife, where and when?

Golden: I met my wife in 1950 in Loraine, Ohio.  My sister and her husband, my brother-in-law, Howard, lived in Loraine.  Tammie is from Loraine, Ohio. Howard and I were going to go fishing or something and something happened.  We couldn’t go, but I’m in Loraine, Ohio and I went to visit so and so.  There sits a girl, cute as a button, with saddle shoes on.  She’s visiting a girlfriend from Northwestern who happened to be Tammie.  I can’t go fishing.  I can’t go where I needed.  I see a girl sitting there.  Tell him what I said.  I said, “You want to go out with me?”  She said, “Yes but let me take the car back to your father.  She’s sitting there.  She doesn’t know what I’m talking about.

Interviewer: So, you met in 1950.  You were in your early 20s.  You fell in love. When did you get married?  What year was that?

Golden: We got married the next year, 1951, June 24.

Interviewer: Okay, so your wife, Tammie, and you were then in Columbus?

Golden: Yes, we lived in Columbus.

Interviewer: Where did you live at first? What was your address?

Golden: In Columbus, on Bryden Road.  We shared an apartment at Bryden and Oakwood.  There was a German American lady.  Below her, the Chazan from the Schul lived below us, and the lady owned the apartment but she wasn’t there so she sublet it, 1100 something Bryden Road.

Interviewer: Bryden and Oakwood.  That was the early 50s.  By that point, that area you’re talking about, Bryden and Oakwood, in the 40s and 30s had a lot of Jews living there.  By the early 50s some of the Jews had started to move eastward, to Bexley and Berwick.  How long were you at Oakwood and Bryden?

Golden: Six months.

Interviewer: Oh, very briefly.  Where did you move after that?

Golden:  We moved to North Roosevelt.  They had just built some new little houses.  They were rental houses, two family units, at Bellwood and (?).  We were on North Roosevelt.

Interviewer: Very north Bexley, not too far from the railroad tracks.

Golden:  It was Columbus, actually, just outside of Bexley.

Interviewer:Oh, just outside.  Bellwood, maybe near Merkle or Gould?

Golden:  In that area.

Interviewer:  On the east side of Bexley.

Golden:  We had a two-family unit.  We had bedrooms upstairs and a living room downstairs.  We each had two floors.  You could hear, next door there was a lady with a new baby.  He was about 18 months old.  She’s toilet training him.  She said, “Make pee pee like daddy does.”  We used to laugh. (Laughs).

Interviewer: How long were you at that apartment?

Golden: About two years.

Interviewer: Then where did you move?

Golden:  Then we moved back to Cleveland.  Tammie was teaching in Cleveland and I was in the vending business.  I was a route manager there, as I was here.  I couldn’t grow with the company.  I could not grow. These things happen with families.  This one has a deal and that one has a deal.  I said, “I’m going to get out of the vending business.”  I went back to school.

Interviewer: This is when you became a teacher?

Golden: Yes, I finished my undergraduate.  I had to take some other courses.

Interviewer: Would this have been in the later 1950s?

Golden: Yes.  It was after 1950.  Oh my God, it was after the Kennedy assassination.  I was in the vending business all this time and I had a heart attack, so I was out of the business for three months.

Interviewer: So, it was the 1960s then when you became a teacher?

Golden:  I started to go back to school and get a teaching degree, elementary, and middle school, and high school.  I got it three ways.  I had a lot of night school because I was running the routes between Zanesville and Cambridge.  I was working nights and going to school.

Interviewer: When it was obvious you were going to be in Columbus, now did Tammie wind up teaching also in Columbus?

Golden: Tammie taught in Cleveland and then we went to Detroit because my father-in-law had a … .  We made a deal with Autofoto.  Remember these little, these kiosks with the ….

Interviewer: Little booths in a parking lot?

Golden:  Yeah, you put your quarter in, you get four strips of pictures, Autofoto.  He and I were in bed together and I couldn’t connect right with it.  There wasn’t enough in it for both of us, my father-in law and I.  So, I decided to come back here.  At that point, definitely, it was time to go to school and become a teacher.

Interviewer:  Was there a point where you kind of settled in here in Columbus?  Was there a particular address you lived in for many years here in Columbus, in the Columbus area?

Golden: Yeah.

Interviewer: Where was that?  Was it in Bexley?

Golden:  Yeah, in our married life we found a home on South Roosevelt, 1000 South Roosevelt, close to Livingston.  Right now, Farrell Golden lives a little closer to us.  He was two doors from us, now.  Before that, he wasn’t there.  So, we were there over 20 years.  Marcie and Betty grew up in that home, in that neighborhood.

Interviewer: You had how many children?

Golden:  We have two daughters.

Interviewer: Marcie and?

Golden:  Betty.  Betty is in Chicago.  Betty is 30, oh my God, Betty is almost 70.

Interviewer: Your two children went to Bexley schools?

Golden: Yeah, they went to Bexley schools all the way through, kindergarten through high school.  Betty went to Ohio State as a dental technician, dental assistant and then she became a teacher.  Marcie got a business degree and has traveled a lot extensively.  We’re very blessed.  We’ve got good sons-in-law.  Howard Apothaker, Rabbi Apothaker is my son-in-law and he’s married to Marcie, my youngest daughter.  They have two daughters.  We just had a wedding.  Our granddaughter, Iliana married a young man, lovely guy.  Our younger granddaughter, her sister, Leah, that’s Marcie and Howard’s younger daughter, she’s engaged to a young man from Texas.  Our daughter, Betty, in Chicago, with her husband, Tripp Hainsfurther, they have two children in their 30s.  One is a teacher.  The other one is a newscaster for a pretty good sized organization.  I don’t know exactly where it is.  He’s a manager of a unit.  He got a good degree in that.  I’d love for you to meet him some day.

Interviewer:  After you settled for good, here in Bexley, were you a member of a synagogue?

Golden:   Yes, we were a member of Tifereth Israel, but first we were married in Loraine, Ohio, in a Conservative synagogue.  Rabbi Zelizer was the Rabbi that we’re familiar with here, Harold Berman also, and then, of course, when the daughter marries another Rebbe and he’s a new guy coming in on a new phase on the map over at Temple Beth Shalom. Boom, we got a rabbi in the family, marvelous guy.

Interviewer:  Rabbi Apothaker.

Golden:  Rabbi Apothaker.  We’ve got two wonderful sons-in-law.  Tripp Hainsfurther is an architect in Chicago, works for the University of Illinois designing their buildings and Betty teaches in a Hebrew school. Marcie is a tumler.  She’s all over the place.  She’s happy.  She’s buying and selling real estate.  Howard is right now in Australia.  He was on a tour.  He’s a rabbi on the tours.  We’re blessed.  We’ve got wonderful kids and we were so lucky.

Interviewer: So, you were at Tifereth Israel?

Golden: Yes, Tifereth Israel.  We were married in Lorain though, Rabbi Mayer.  Samuel Mayer was our Rabbi.

Interviewer:  Do you have any particular memories of the Columbus Jewish community in the 60s and 70s, which now is a half century ago?  What do you remember?

Golden:  We had a wonderful Sunday morning league for the seniors.  We were playing softball, fast pitch softball and regular pitch softball, Sunday morning, a lot of competition.  We even got chances to play in the penitentiary against some of the people there.

Interviewer: Were these games usually at the Jewish Center?

Golden:  Yeah, they were sponsored at the Jewish Center but the games were played in a park on Broad Street.  The ball fields were there.

Interviewer: Wolf Park?

Golden: Wolf Park, yeah.  You probably remember that.

Interviewer:     Now tell me, you say the Jewish kids who were in this, not the Jewish kids, adults you’re talking about.  When you were an adult, you played softball and you got to play inmates in prison?

Golden: We had one game in the penitentiary.  I did not play in that.  I don’t know where I was, out of town or something.  It was a lot of history. We found out something about, there was a Jewish convert there.

Interviewer: It’s okay if you don’t remember his name.

Golden: Solly Hart.  Solly Hart was 18 years old and another fella from the Youngstown area, an Italian boy, they were tough kids.  They were connected with a gang and there was a killing of one of the opposite gangs, one of their competitors.  These two boys killed this man.  They were the gunmen.  Solly Hart was the driver.  The other guy was the gunner.  Solly Hart, they weren’t too smart.  They were young guys.  They were probably under 20, 21 and they get down, this is from the Youngstown area, they get down to Portsmouth, Ohio and they’re selling jewelry.  They threatened the guy, after they shot him and that’s how they caught them.  One of the men, not Solly, but the other man, was executed.  Solly Hart was sentenced to life in prison as an accomplice to this killing.  Solly Hart was the organizer of the labor group in the penitentiary, making shoes and shining things and odds and ends.  He had a kop.

Interviewer: You’re saying he had a kop, he had a brain?

Golden:  Yeah, he had insight.  He was an interesting guy.  There’s a lot of history with Solly Hart.  He was from Cleveland originally.  Anyway, he was a tough kid and Governor Lausche, after so many other governors, finally pardoned him because Solly Hart was the chauffeur, the driver for Warden Alvis.  He was his private chauffeur.

Interviewer: Warden Alvis.

Golden: Correct, he was the superintendent of the prison.  They were in a terrible accident, but the warden was driving.  Solly pulls him out of the car and saves his life.  They were on their way to Cambridge for a lecture.  This is a lifer with a kop.

Interviewer: Life in prison was his sentence, but he got out.

Golden: He pulled the warden out and saved him.  Lausche finally, there were other governors, the pardon finally got to Lausche, and he lets him go, gives him parole, Solly Hart.

Interviewer:  Is that when he helped to arrange the baseball game?

Golden: Possibly.

Interviewer: Hart, his last name of Hart? Jewish inmate.

Golden: Yeah, Jewish inmate.

Interviewer: So, you talked about, you just talked about baseball, adults playing baseball.  How old were you?  You’re talking about 30, 40, 50 year olds playing baseball?  You have fond memories of the Jewish community doing that.  What else?

Golden:  We played softball, fast pitching, some good athletes there.

Interviewer: How about some of the Jewish institutions.  Do you remember Martin’s Kosher Foods?

Golden: Oh sure, there’s a great story.  Martins is marvelous.  He had a special on tuna fish once, six cans for something or other.  It was a good deal.  So, we go there.  Tammie says, “Go down and get six cans of tuna fish.”  I go to Martin’s market and I got my buggy, and I fill it with the six cans of tuna fish and I wanted some salami.  So, one of the butchers over there, I can’t remember his name.  He was on the baseball team with us.  He’s cutting my salami for me and I’ve got the six cans of tuna fish in the wagon, and I go to put the salami with the tuna fish.  There’s an older woman taking my buggy with my six cans of tuna fish.  I said, “You’re going with my tuna fish.”  She said, “No, no these are my tuna fish. Gay aveck, gay aveck (Go away). She’s hollering at me.  I said, “Okay.”

Interviewer:  She’s hollering at you in Yiddish?

Golden:  Yeah.  Harry, I can’t remember, he was the butcher.  He’s laughing like hell.  If I mention the name, I can’t remember.  So, I go to get another six cans of tuna fish.  I get my salami.  As I’m going to the checkout.  There at the checkout counter are six cans of tuna fish.  She didn’t take them. She thought they stacked my tuna, my original.  So, these are funny stories, (laughs) Martins.

Interviewer: What was the feeling at Martins?  Did you have a good feeling at Martins?

Golden:  Oh yeah, a good what?

Interviewer: A good feeling.  Did it feel like a good place?

Golden: Oh yes, Martins was a wonderful place.  It was a hamisha place.  Everybody knew everybody.  It was a gossip, did you know this guy got a new car, this guy got a new baby.  Then there was an African American kid, a terrific kid.  He was involved there also.  It was a gathering house, Martins.  It was a way of life.  It was a gossip hangout, a sports hangout.  You could have a good time just meeting people there, just to say hello to an old friend.  Martins had a good market.

Interviewer: Tell me, what’s your assessment in the 60s, 70s, 80s, when you were a younger man, you were an adult, how did you assess the way Jews and non-Jews got along in Columbus?

Golden: Well, I think for the most part it was very good.  You’re always going to find a little thing that this one doesn’t like, not because he’s chalking up the sidewalk.  These kids are making marks on the sidewalk, not for the kid but because he’s a Jewish kid marking on the sidewalk.  He shouldn’t be doing that.  You come across crazies like that.  Non-Jewish kids will also write on the sidewalk, you know, for hopscotch.  You’re always going to find those crazies, and you deal with them, just ignore them.  Put the red flag up and say, “Have a nice morning, Mr. Smith,” or something.  We had a lot who were looking for trouble.

If it got to the point where there was a lot of hatred, danger, then you have to take action, either legally or physically.  It’s unfortunate that these things do happen, not because we’re Jewish or not Jewish. Different racial things, people have a hatred inbred.  They’re not even aware of it.  Then there are others who don’t have that, that aren’t Jewish.  There’s a lot of good linkage between a non-Jewish and a Jewish, a Black, and the Hispanic and the Oriental.  If you want to look for trouble, you can always find it.  Look for the other end of it. Look for the rainbow because you’re going to find more good people that way.  This is the way we were raised.

Interviewer: Do you remember yourself facing any antisemitism in Columbus?

Golden: Oh yeah.

Interviewer: What kinds of things are we talking about?

Golden: The usual stuff.  You’re a tightwad.  You’re this.  The word kike would come in, curses.  Not with everybody, very few, maybe not directed at you but you hear it out on the street.  You get the half of something, it’s unfortunate.  The Jewish people also said terrible things sometimes about different religions, different races.  They’re making fun of this one or that one.  That’s human nature.  I think, for the most part, if you want to be a friendly neighbor, act like a friendly neighbor.  It doesn’t take that much.  If you find a troublemaker, you avoid him.  Keep your eyes open but avoid him.  You’re going to find a lot of people who aren’t Jewish will help you.  They’re aware of it.

Interviewer: You’ve been living here at Kensington Retirement Community for a few years.

Golden: One year, just about a year.

Interviewer:  There are a significant number of Jews here.  Obviously, Jews are not in the majority.  So, is it friendly?

Golden:  It’s very friendly.  I have never heard any negative things one way or another.  We have a good Hebrew Service here every Friday.  Rabbis come in.  It’s good.  Everybody wants to know what is a Jewish Service, what do we do for Jewish Service, and we explain it to them.  Not everybody but there are those who are seriously interested in other religions.  If you want trouble, you find it, but I think there’s more good things happening.

Interviewer:  Mr. Golden, you just remembered something.  Earlier you referred to a federal judge and you just remembered his name, Mel Underwood.  That was the story of the citizen.  He helped a citizen get his citizenship.  We’ve taken a long time with Mr. Golden.  Your daughter tells me that there’s a story you should quickly tell us and that is that you saw the legendary Satchel Page pitch in Cleveland or before Cleveland.  Tell us about that.  It was 1948.

Golden: 1948, the World Series.  Bob Feller was pitching for the Cleveland Indians.  At that time, it was the Indians.  Boston was really pounding him.  Cleveland did win that World Series, but this particular game Bob Feller was losing.  So in come a new reliever, the old man Moses.  Satchel Page is called to pitch for the Cleveland Indians.  It took him about ten minutes to come in from the bull pen,  tipping his hat, smiling, tipping his hat for the people.  He was a real showman.  He struck out the sides of Boston, but Cleveland still lost that particular game.

Interviewer: He was already famous for being a….?

Golden:  He was with the Negro League.  He was a marvelous ball player, a great pitcher and a showman.  He had a good time on the ballpark.  Satchel Page, it was a lot of fun watching him walk ten minutes, almost ten minutes to come in from the bull pen to the pitcher’s mound.

Interviewer: Satchel Page was African American and you’re telling, oh, okay, 1948. So, this is the year after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier.

Golden:  Bill Veeck was the owner of the Cleveland Indians at that time.  He was a paraplegic, but he was a wonderful man and he did a lot for baseball.  He brought a midget in once.  I don’t know if you remember that story.

Interviewer: He was a showman.

Golden: He was a showman and a wonderful person.  I’ll never forget Satchel Page.

Interviewer: Tipping his hat.

Golden:  Tipping his hat and he could throw the ball.  He was a pitcher, but he didn’t win that game.

Interviewer: Your daughter, Marcie, also says we should ask you about your secrets to a successful marriage.  You’ve been married how many years to the same woman?

Golden:  To this lady, my lady, 72 years.

Interviewer: 72 years you’ve been married to Tammie, your wife.  What is your secret?  What do you tell people?

Golden:  You nod your head a lot.  You say, “Okay.”  She’s the sweetest girl I ever had, really the best wife I’ve got in Columbus.  She’s a good lady, a good mother, a good friend, and she’s my boss.  We help each other. If I didn’t say the right thing, I wouldn’t get dinner tonight (Laughs).

Interviewer: Humor, it sounds like humor is important.

Golden:  We had a wonderful marriage and we’re very happy and we help each other.  We help each other.

Interviewer: As we wrap up our interview with you, is there anything else, in particular, you haven’t gotten a chance to talk about, that you want to express about the Jewish community, especially the Jewish community here in Columbus, or your feelings about the Jewish people, or anything of that sort?

Golden:  Well, I think that the thing that has kept the Jewish people alive is humor, not nasty humor, but just common sense humor.  It’s fun to make fun of yourself.  There are some wonderful things that only Jewish humor can bring out, not always, but there are certain things. There’s one joke, and it’s an old one.  May I share it on here?  A bubbe, an older grandma, has her little four-year old grandson at the beach, at Cedar Point.  The kid loves to jump in the water.  He jumps in the water and he was down there to get sun.  They had a picnic on the beach and he goes out in the water.  A big wave comes and sweeps him away.  The lifeguard sees him, and he gets up and he swims out and he saves the kid.  He brings him back in and he says, “Madam, here’s your grandson.  He’s okay.”  She says, “He had a cap.”  That’s Jewish humor.

Interviewer: That’s Jewish humor.  Why didn’t you rescue the cap?

Golden: He had a cap, yeah, (Laughs).  You laugh at these things.  It goes both ways.  I hope I didn’t embarrass anybody.

Interviewer:  No, maybe the cap manufacturers.  Are you hopeful about the Jewish community, especially in Columbus?

Golden:  Yes, I’m a positive person all my life.  I think that the Jewish community has to, first of all, look itself in the mirror and say, “What can I do to help Columbus, Ohio, because if I help Columbus, Ohio, I can help myself, I can help the children that are growing up in Columbus, Ohio, whether they’re Jewish children or non-Jewish children.”  I think you have to have a positive attitude.  You have to have mentschlichkite.  You have to be a mentsch, a mentsch is not that difficult.  If you see something that isn’t right, try to correct it intelligently, not violently.  Try to correct it intelligently.  You’re going to find other people who are not Jewish feel the same way you do.  These are the people that are building the country.  You’re going to find the good, bad, and the ugly, and you deal with it.  That’s it.

Interviewer:  With those words, we’ll end our interview with Dick Golden here for the Columbus Jewish Historical Society on October 13, 2022.  I’m Bill Cohen.  Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scripps Howard